The Practitioner-Scholar: The PennCLO Podcast

Melissa: Hello, and welcome to
our inaugural edition of the

Practitioner Scholar, a Penn
Chief Learning Officer podcast.

I'm Melissa Monti, and
I will be your host.

We are very excited to be here for our
first episode where we will use the time

to I'm going to explore some of the great
work and successes behind some of the

alumni of the Penn Chief Learning Officer
Program, or Penn CLO as it's known.

It's actually an executive
doctoral program through the

University of Pennsylvania's
Graduate School of Education.

And I'm actually a current
student of this program.

The course of study focuses on
organizational learning, leadership,

and development within the public
and private working sectors.

It's also known as a scholar
practitioner program.

That means that while there is an
academic research component, a lot

of what we learn can be applied to
the workplace through best practices.

Thought leadership and
creating a framework to be

a trusted learning partner.

Speaking of which we are excited
to introduce our first guest, Dr.

Keith Keating.

He serves as the chief learning and talent
officer for BDO, a global consulting firm.

He is also the author of the
groundbreaking learning and

development practitioners guide,
the trusted learning advisor.

A sought after keynote speaker, he is
also an advocate for talent development

and emphasizes human talent as the
cornerstone of organizational success.

Dr.

Keating also received his Master of
Education and Doctor of Education

degrees from the Penn Chief
Learning Officer Program . Dr.

Keating, thank you so
much for joining us today.

May I call you Keith?

Keith: Absolutely, Melissa.

Thank you.

And it's a pleasure to be
here on our first inaugural

episode.

Melissa: Absolutely.

Thank you again.

We have several topics on today's
agenda for you, which include your

newly released book, of course, Specific
Learning and Development Frameworks,

and your thoughts on incorporating these
into Fortune 500 companies and beyond.

We also have some lighthearted questions
for you to help inspire us all to

engage in a lifelong learning journey.

But first, we would love
to take a few minutes.

to get to know you as a
person and also a human.

You've been very open in the past about
your beginnings and how education looked

for you during your younger years.

Can you tell us a little
bit more about that journey?

Keith: Absolutely.

Our backgrounds of course are like
our fingerprints, very unique.

And for me, I struggled significantly
with school and education growing up.

My father was in the military, so we moved
every year, basically, and my formative

years were in Germany, Korea, Japan,
and so when I did finally move to the U.

S., I was definitely mal
aligned to the education system.

And I just struggled so much that
eventually I dropped out when I was 15.

And I think that's been a driving factor
for my continued education as an adult.

And my passion for this industry
is I understand firsthand.

What it's like to struggle with the idea
of learning and this formal construct

that a lot of times our schools or
education systems like to put in place

to make everybody fit inside of that box.

And I don't feel like there's one box.

That everyone can fit in.

And so to your earlier point thank you
for the introduction, but my advocacy and

my passion is around encouraging everyone
to be lifelong learners, because once

you understand the power of learning.

You can take control over your future,
and you're really unstoppable as a human.

Okay,

Melissa: very good.

Now, this actually segues very
nicely into my next question for you.

Often you hear a lot of the times
from older adults that it's too late

to go back to school, or I missed my
calling, or I'm too old to start over.

So my question for you
is actually two parts.

How do you feel about those phrases or
the phrase too late tied to learning?

And what is your opinion on learning
through higher education versus

possibly learning through the workplace?

What are some pros and cons there?

Keith: I think there's no such thing
as ever too late except But I was

a dancer and I can tell you that my
body is telling me that now it is too

late to continue to be in a dancer.

So there are some things
where, yes, it can be too late.

But learning is definitely
not one of those things.

And in my opinion, you should be
learning for your entire lifetime.

That's hence lifelong learning means
that for the trajectory of your

life, you're going to be learning.

to Your second question in terms of
higher education versus work experience.

They bring different advantage
points and also different challenges.

I think you can't replace the practical
experience, that hands on experience.

It's extremely valuable.

For me personally, I think
it was great that my higher

education came later in my life.

To where what I was learning had
relevance and context and I understood

and I knew how to apply it because
I had that real world experience

versus when I tried to start my higher
education younger at 16, 17, I just

didn't understand how to apply it.

I think that there is a need for both,
and the relevance and contextualization

is what's a really valuable,
important concept of maybe doing

the higher education later in life.

If I had kids, I would advocate for
them to get a job, get that experience,

that practice, go back and get their
higher education once they had a

place where they could actually apply

Melissa: it.

Now, of course, we want to get to your
book, which, by the way, is a huge

feat in itself, taking the time to sit
down, do the research, compile your

thoughts, and then have it published,
of course, so congratulations there.

But the Trusted Learning Advisor, as
it's known, I know there are several

topics that are addressed and discussed,
but could you give us a high level

overview of how it redefines a learning
leader in today's organizations?

Keith: So I've been in the
industry for over 23 years.

I started when I was five, if
you're trying to do the math.

And I spent the majority of that time
as an order taker, letting somebody else

decide who, what, where, when, why, and
how a learning intervention needed to

occur, and then giving me or my team
that order, and then waiting for us to

execute it, and we would execute it.

And to put it mildly, I am exhausted
with being treated like an order taker,

and I know a lot of our industry is.

And, regardless of the amount
of experience that I had or the

potential value that I could
be providing in organizations,

this is how we were treated.

So this book is a culmination of
those skills, those strategies, those

best practices that I've learned that
over the years have helped me and

my teams to overcome being treated
like order takers and that the

preconceived notions and biases that
our stakeholders often have towards us.

The book is.

Part manifesto, part toolkit,
part motivational mentor.

That's helping to support every level of
L and D or talent practitioners to develop

the skills and capabilities that we need
to be strategic business partners that

are embedded in the business who are.

Sought after, listened to, trusted.

That's what all of us strive to achieve,
I think as leaders in our organizations.

But if you think about specifically,
how does it help learning leaders,

talent development leaders?

We have a tremendous amount of value
that we can be providing to the business.

And this book is a guide into how
you can build those relationships,

become a strategic business partner
with your stakeholders so that they

can recognize the value that you
have to provide to the organization.

Because our job is simply
to support the talent.

And we look at what is the most
important resource in every organization.

Melissa: And one follow up question for
those who maybe haven't worked within

the corporate sector or an organization
where there's a shared service

function like learning and development.

Maybe the perception for people who have
not come up in learning and development

may say you have a doctorate in education.

You have a master's in education.

How is the business not?

Taking you as a trusted
learning advisor already.

Can you speak to some of the
challenges of liaising with some of

the functional groups, sales marketing,

and although you have that experience
in education, the business has

expertise in their specific function.

So how do you break down those barriers?

Keith: It's a great question, but
let me just respond to the first

part of that my credentials haven't
changed the way I'm treated, honestly.

I think it's important that I share
that because I had this expectation

that once I got those credentials.

That was it.

And I would be invited into the room
and to the conversations and to be

able to drive those strategies and I
can say that it's not really changed.

It is a constant journey for us to
be treated like trusted learning

advisors, for us to be treated
like strategic business partners.

And it comes down to the way that we act,
the way that we behave, our credibility,

our experience, our expertise.

But to your specific question, it
comes down to our relationships.

That's really the core essence of what
it means to have a seat at the table or

to be building your own table and to be
in those conversations with any of those

other business units or stakeholders,
its trust and its relationships.

And so that's the most important
thing that we can be focusing

on is understanding from our
stakeholders perspective.

What are their challenges?

How can we help them achieve their goals?

Another way that I like to think of it is.

Our job is to make our stakeholders
the hero of their own story.

It's not to make L& D look good.

And for so many years I'll raise
my hand and say I did it as well.

I had my own goals that I wanted to
accomplish, and I had my own agendas.

And so L& D is often segregated from
the rest of the business units, deriving

their own agenda, their own value
propositions, their own measurements.

And it's only relevant to us.

And at the end of the day, we
need to be focusing on what's

relevant to those stakeholders.

Melissa: Also in your book,
you discuss the shift from

transactional to strategic learning.

Tell us a little bit more about that.

Keith: So I'm going to share with
you three kind of Examples of that.

There's many more in the book.

So check out the book.

But traditionally, order
takers are transactional.

So to begin with, learning leaders need
to broaden their perspective beyond just

delivering training or learning programs.

And this means going back to my
earlier statement that we've got

to broaden our business context
in how our business is operating.

So I think that's where you were
headed is do we have to be subject

matter experts in the business?

We don't have to be experts, but we
have to have an understanding of our

business of our stakeholders so that we
can speak their language because more

often than not, we're using our own
vocabulary, our own lexicons, our own

definitions and acronyms, and it's not
our stakeholders job to understand us.

It is our job to understand
our stakeholders.

So ultimately it's about aligning
our learning strategies with the

organizational goals and being able to
demonstrate how learning initiatives

contribute to those objectives.

And this alignment is absolutely critical.

It's not just delivering those
solutions, but ensuring the solution

drive tangible business outcome.

So that's number one.

Number two.

Building robust relationships with our
stakeholders across the organization.

I know I'm repeating myself,
but it needs to be repeated

because so often it's overlooked.

It requires stepping out of that
traditional L and D silo and engaging

with those different departments and
being embedded across the organization,

looking Holistically in following the
concepts of systems thinking, and I'll

give an example to listeners and viewers.

Finance your chief financial officer.

That should be one of
your key stakeholders.

We should be partnering with
every business unit, hr,

marketing, IT, and finance.

The chief financial officer.

That person's role is to determine
the value of every business unit

in the organization and to drive
value for the organization.

If you don't have a relationship with
them, how are they determining the

value of the work that you're providing?

I don't know.

That's why you need to build a
relationship with them to make sure

that you're connected and that you
see them as a stakeholder and they

see you as a valuable contributing
member to the organization.

It's about becoming a partner
rather than just a service provider.

And then number three, it's
fostering a continuous.

Learning culture within that organization,
this means not just focusing on formal

training programs, but really promoting
and facilitating informal and social

and knowledge sharing and supporting
employee led learning initiatives.

I know that was a mouthful, but those
are at least three kind of examples

that I would share in terms of.

Your question.

Melissa: No, that makes a lot of sense.

And in fact, I wanted to talk a
little bit more about that value that

you mentioned, because I'm sure in
your experience, you've seen that

success metrics are often hard to
display back to the business, right?

It's more of a long game versus short
term, quarter over quarter, maybe,

halves over halves, maybe even the year.

Sometimes you need longer than that
to demonstrate the effectiveness

of L& D within an organization.

So given that, can you share
your insights on what success

metrics should focus on today?

Keith: Absolutely.

And this is going to be maybe a
little bit controversial and different

from other speakers, but this is my
perspective based on my experience.

The most important recommendation I
could share for this question is this.

Success is dependent on your context.

It doesn't matter what I deem as success
criteria or what you or what anyone

else in the industry says is the success
criteria we should be monitoring.

It is solely dependent on the need of
what you are solving for your stakeholder.

Are you solving for them?

Too often.

We try to put these generalizations
on success metrics and make these

sweeping statements that, oh, we should
be measuring this or measuring that.

But if we're doing that, and as
LMD practitioners, we're sharing

these sentiments about measuring
something we deem valuable, but

our stakeholders don't agree.

In the end, are we successful?

And I have spent so many years failing
at this because we were creating

these success metrics in isolation.

And I thought that we
were being successful.

And then I package this up and I go
back to my stakeholder and present it.

And they say, no, that's
not important to us.

That's not valuable to us.

So we have to ask ourselves the
question, are we measuring what

is important and necessary and
driving value to the business?

If you're not, that's where
you need to be focusing on.

So start first with what business problems
are we trying to solve for, and then

figure out how you measure that impact.

But if I were to answer the
question a little bit more

tactically, I would say this.

Skill acquisition remains
a fundamental metric.

Absolutely.

It's essential that we need to
understand how the skill acquisition

is impacting business outcomes.

We need to measure how newly acquired
skills are translated into improved

performance and higher productivity.

And ultimately.

Contributing to the
overall organization goal.

Also, fostering a culture of continuous
learning is equally as important.

In today's changing business
environment, the ability of an

organization to adapt and evolve
continuously is absolutely critical.

I know I started with not
creating a generalized statement.

I think it starts first contextually
understanding what's important to your

organization, the business goals, your
stakeholders, but I think also we can look

at skill acquisition, how it's improving
performance metrics, higher productivity.

Decreasing turnover and then
also fostering a continuous

learning environment.

Melissa: Your book also makes
note of future forward frameworks.

What does that mean exactly?

When I

Keith: talk about future forward
frameworks for learning leaders,

I'm really referring to innovative
approaches and strategies that help

them meet the needs of the learners.

And to me, innovation is like The
word interesting, it can have so many

different contexts or meaning to it.

So innovation to me means that you're
just doing something differently.

It's not necessarily technology driven.

It's just applying a different
mindset, a different approach.

So the frameworks that I talk about
in the book are crucial for those

who may feel that Maybe their current
learning methods are falling short in

terms of effectiveness or relevance,
but specifically a future forward

framework means moving beyond that
traditional one size fits all approach.

And I go back to the comment a little
few minutes ago in terms of There's not

a one size fits all approach when it
comes to L& D, especially organizational

L& D, for me, it's more about adopting
a holistic learner centric approach

that recognizes we have diverse needs.

We have learning approaches
or maybe preferences.

We have career aspirations
of individual learners.

And so what I look at is I'm a design
thinking practitioner and I use design

thinking to help me conduct qualitative
research in the organization to figure

out what do our learners need and then
from there work backwards to create a

framework that can help support them.

And so really in summary, my,
my answer is it's just not a

one size fits all approach.

Melissa: And I wanted to ask this
question as well, too, because I'm

sure a lot of people in the industry
would probably agree and or remember a

time where they were in this position.

What would you consider a best practice
working with functional leaders who

maybe do not share the same school of
thought of a continuous learning culture?

What are your

Keith: thoughts?

I think to be honest, I
think that's most leaders.

Most leaders want that immediate
return on, I'm going to say investment,

although I don't care for that phrase
ROI, they want that immediate impact,

even the ones who believe in lifelong
learning or continuous learning,

it's like there's two pathways.

Oh, in theory, yes, lifelong learning
and continuous learning is important for

the organization, except for me, when
I need to get some results now, I want

that value, I want that impact today.

So I don't have, six, 12 months.

That's something that we consistently
face, I think, with every leader.

And that's where your influence
skills, your negotiating skills,

your research skills come into play.

One of my preferred approaches and
tactics is I try to take myself

out of the equation and I don't
want I don't want my stakeholders

to say that's your perspective,
Keith, you don't know my business.

I don't, I want my name kept out of it.

I consider myself an intermediary
between other leaders in the

organization or in our industry data.

So for example, I use
World Economic Forum.

I use McKinsey Global Institute.

I use Deloitte and I pull
from these research firms.

To try and demonstrate the point,
for example, if you're a question

about the sales leader, just
wants that one day workshop.

What's the problem we're
actually trying to solve?

What's the behavior
we're trying to change?

Is it a tool?

Is it a process?

Is it actually performance driven?

Is there something else in the
value chain that's stopping them

understanding all of those pieces?

But then if I'm trying to package a
solution for them, it's Using the other

data that exists other experts in the
field, bringing other voices into the

conversation so that it's less about
me trying to prove a point and change

their mindset, but about helping them
become educated in how we actually drive

change through learning and development.

And that's a slippery slope because
as I mentioned earlier, it's

not their job to understand our
tools, our frameworks and such.

It's our job to figure out how do
we translate everything that we know

about the right way to learn, when
it is the right appropriate time,

translate that into a way that's
meaningful, understandable, and

digestible to those stakeholders.

And that's the real skill set that
we have to constantly be developing.

Melissa: As you may know,
the organizational landscape

is rapidly evolving due to
technological advancements.

Of course this year, as an example,
generative AI was in the news quite a bit.

So how can learning leaders stay
ahead of the curve and adapt some

of their strategies to meet the
demands of the modern workplace?

Keith: I've had a number of conversations
recently with chief learning officers

and learning leaders even higher
education professors, where they have

not yet started to use Gen AI, or
specifically I'll just call out ChatGPT.

The answer to your question is you
stay ahead by being aware by learning.

We're all learning right now.

We don't know how this is going to play
out, but there is one thing that we know.

There is no version of the
future that exists without AI.

AI, like technology or the
internet, is here and it is

going to be here for our future.

The best thing that you can do is embrace
it, understand it, learn it, figure out

how you can leverage it to do its job.

Its job is to help augment you,
to free you up from some of those

Tasks and activities that technology
can do better than us so that you

can focus on your core skill set.

So the answer to your question is
we should be absolutely embracing

technology and tools when it comes
to helping our organizations learn.

And the way that you start is by
simply Learning them yourselves.

You don't have to become an A.

I.

Expert.

It's evolving so quickly.

I think last year towards the end
of last year, there was maybe 30

40 companies focusing on this.

Now there's thousands.

It's evolving every single day, but
you have to stay abreast of that.

And as a trusted learning
advisor, you have to be aware

of all of the tools that exist.

I view our job as Yeah.

We need to have the
biggest toolkit possible.

And that means you understand everything
from LMS, LXP, MOOC, AR, VR, MR, AI.

What are the use cases for each of those?

What are the vendors that are out there?

When should you use one, not the other?

What's the difference between
SuccessFactors and EdCast and Docebo?

Should you have an LXP and why
should you have an LXP so that when

these organizational problems arise,
when our stakeholders bring us a

problem, we identify a problem, we
go into our tool kit and we find the

right tool to solve that problem.

And that means that we have
to keep our biases out of it.

It's not what tool I like.

It's what tool is going to
solve the right problem.

And part of those tools
include things like.

Kirkpatrick's Level 4, Phillip's ROI,
LTIM's, Wilhelm Thalheimer's LTIM model.

You may not like Kirkpatrick's Level 4,
but you should understand it, because

your stakeholders may know what a Level
3 is and be asking you about a Level 3.

You should know the difference
between, LTIM and Kirkpatrick.

So long story short, it's our
responsibility to have an awareness and an

understanding of all the tools that exist.

It can feel overwhelming, but we
don't have to be know it alls.

We need to be learn it alls.

I'm not an expert in every single
one of those tools, but I have

an awareness of what they are.

So when that problem does arrive, I can
figure out which tool do I need to use.

to help solve that problem.

Melissa: And that probably answers
some of my next question for you.

In your book, also, you emphasize
human talent as the cornerstone

of organizational success.

Can you share some best practices around
talent development that you believe

every learning leader should be aware of?

I believe you just answered a good
portion of it, but anything else

you have to offer would be great.

Keith: Get the book.

It's all in there.

If you want to know everything
that I think about that,

it's literally all in there.

As I mentioned, it's, I wrote it as a
way to download my 25 years of experience

and it is truly a practical guide.

It is not a thought leader, ethereal book.

It's here's the, you want
to build relationships.

Here are best practices.

You want to build trust?

Here are best practices.

You want to build your skills
and learning practitioner?

Here are the best practices.

So in terms of answering your question, I
would say definitely check out the book.

There are other tools
like design thinking.

Every talent development practitioner
should be fully aware and immersing

themselves in design thinking as
a tool to be solving problems.

If you think about what do we do as talent
development leaders, we develop humans.

And our humans have problems and
we need to solve those problems.

Design thinking is a fantastic tool
for that because it is a framework that

gives us a structure that we can follow.

And what I love about
frameworks and methodologies

is in some way it's a shield.

Earlier you were asking what happens
when your stakeholders, push back

and they don't want to follow along?

I use these methodologies as my shield
to say, Hey, it's not Keith that's

saying that it's design thinking.

This is the methodology.

It's a scientific methodology.

Stanford uses it.

These are all the companies that use it.

Here's how, why we should
use it and the value of it.

And it takes the individual,
the human me out of it.

So it's less about my voice and it's
more about solving the problem with

this method, with this methodology.

So I would leave that one with you,
a human centered design thinking.

Melissa: I have more to read.

That is for sure.

FInally, before we get into some
more light hearted questions, I

would love to ask your opinion
on your newer title of doctor.

In your honest opinion, what changed
for you after you turned in your

dissertation, which is a huge feat, and
walked the stage to receive your degree?

How did the Penn CLO program
impact your career, do you think,

if you could pick one thing?

Keith: If I were going to pick one thing,
I would say that It's made me a better,

for lack of better words, truer learning
leader in the sense that I know how to

research now and I also know how to write.

That's, I think that's the biggest the
biggest value proposition for me is

that I know how to coherently write.

I know how to research.

I know how to formulate.

But also it gave me a
credibility to some people.

Like I said, it hasn't changed all
of the mindsets of stakeholders.

It's given me a community
of other leaders.

And I think that , is one of the.

biggest value propositions is that we're
not going to solve this by ourself.

No C.

L.

O.

Is working siloed.

My network is my greatest, I think
value proposition is I'm connected

to some of the most brilliant
thought leaders in the world.

And when I'm faced with a
challenge Or a question I can

go to them and talk about it.

And so I think understand how to
research me in a much better writer

and connecting to brilliant thought
leaders in my cohorts in the program

has made me a better learning leader.

Melissa: I Enjoyed your candid responses.

Very insightful.

Thank you so much.

And I would now love to spend some
time on some more lighthearted

questions, if that's okay?

Keith: Absolutely.

Melissa: All right.

So here's the first one.

What would you recommend as one
out of the box, unconventional way

to learn something new and why?

Keith: I think role playing.

Immersive role playing is one of the best
ways to learn, at least for me, it gives

you the ability to practice, going back
to trusted learning advisors, influence

skills, negotiation skills, being able
to have difficult conversations while

these are valuable as a trusted learning
advisor, it's valuable for any leader or

any human And also something that a lot
of people struggle with, and I found that

role playing those discussions, those
situations gives you the opportunity

to practice and until the words come
out of your mouth, until your body

language is experiencing that situation
it's raw, it's new, you don't know how

you're necessarily going to respond,
and the more times that you can do that,

the better you become, it's practice.

Can you share a quirky or unusual
skill or hobby that you've picked

up that others may be interested in?

My current skill is learning
AI, learning chat GPT and how

to Use it to make me better.

And I love just trying different
things with it every single day.

It's my, my significant other has
worried that I'm having too strong

of a relationship with chat GPT,
which now I just call it chat.

And I, I'm talking about it every day.

So I guess, a new hobby slash
skill is learning how to use AI to.

Free me up and make me
better at what I do.

Melissa: Alright, I would love
to know what keeps you up at

Keith: night.

As a learning leader right now, what I'm
concerned most about is the fact that

Every leader in organizations across the
globe are asking themselves, how can AI

make our organization faster, more money,
and more effective, and save costs?

And when we say save costs,
what we're talking about is

resources, our human talent.

Every leader is asking themselves that.

Right now, we're not seeing a
massive wave in job reductions

as of a I, but it is coming.

And what keeps me up at night is my
concern that as learning leaders,

we're not getting ahead of this curve.

We're not necessarily looking at our
organization to figure out what roles.

might be at risk.

And we've been talking about the
future of learning for years now.

And by the way, I'm not a fan of that
phrase because I feel like when we use

the word future, we're giving ourself
permission not to take action today and

everything that we're talking about with
the future of learning the future of work.

Should be actionable today.

And what has elevated
this is AI is chat GPT.

I know that in one of the organizations I
work with, we could reduce our workforce

by 30 percent in the next 12 months.

I know that today.

I know there are conversations
happening behind closed doors

where this is being discussed.

No one is discussing it publicly.

So it's my responsibility
as a learning leader.

to be taking that information and
figuring out how do I help those people?

How do I help them start to upskill,
reskill, second skill today, even if it's

not going to happen for 12, 18, 24 months?

And I don't think that enough learning
leaders are thinking about that.

So what keeps me up right now
is I'm worried about our talent.

I'm worried that as learning leaders,
we're missing the opportunity to get

ahead of this discussion by figuring
out what roles might be at risk.

Yes, our businesses might
not have announced them.

HR might not know yet.

Our stakeholders might not
know yet, but we can know at

least we can have some insight.

Again, McKinsey Global Institute, World
Economic Forum, the data exists on

roles that AI can do better than us.

So if we already have that data today,
we should be planning for that right now.

So answer your question, I'm
worried that we're just not doing

enough right now to help our talent
prepare for what's coming soon.

Melissa: So saying that, I'm curious
to your thoughts of the news headlines

that we've seen in late 2022 into
2023 with layoffs, yet there is a

talent shortage with necessary skills
that hiring leaders are looking for.

So how do we close that gap?

Knowing that there's talented, skilled
workers out there, but some of these

positions that are open in organizations
have highly prescriptive requirements.

How do we close that gap?

Keith: There's always this question of
whose responsibility is it when we talk

about lifelong learning and upskilling?

Is it the organization's responsibility?

Is it the governor's responsibility?

Is it?

The individual employee's responsibility.

I'm going to say something
a little bit controversial.

I think it's the
employee's responsibility.

It's my responsibility as a human,
as a worker, to make sure that I have

the skills that I need to do my job.

That means that it's also my
responsibility to understand how to look.

It the workforce, how to look
at what's changing all of the

things that we've talked about
today are available to everybody.

What I believe organizations
need to be doing is to create

opportunities to reinforce this
point of being lifelong learners.

So I don't expect my organization to
upskill me and to make sure that I

have a career for the rest of my life.

They're looking out for
the skills that they need.

The answer to your
question is the skill gaps.

The layoffs are real.

The talent shortage is real.

The layoffs are also real.

I think that we need to continuously
be advocating for lifelong learning,

create equitable opportunity for everyone
to continue their learning, create

space and time in the organization.

If you look at organizations,
they'll talk about, yes,

continuous learning is important.

Lifelong learning is important.

And then you ask, how much time
are you giving your employees?

each year to learn.

And I find that many can't
answer that question.

They don't have a set number of hours.

So the most basic thing that every
organization can do is give a minimum

number of required hours that every
employee needs to have to continuously

be upskilling, developing themselves.

40 hours is typically the number
when an organization does say it.

One week is not enough.

One week is absolutely not enough,
so you've got to figure out what's

right for your organization, what's
right for the roles, but create

space, create equitable opportunities,
things like tuition reimbursement is

not the same as tuition assistance.

Tuition reimbursement assumes
the employee can carry that cost.

Often the people that we're talking about
are those that are hourly employees that

cannot carry the cost of tuition, the
cost of certifications for six months

or however long the certification is.

They're incurring the interest
rate on top of that, which

organizations don't reimburse.

So it's actually not net
even, it's a negative balance.

The organization should be
focusing on tuition assistance

rather than tuition reimbursement.

These are some examples of creating
equitable opportunities to really

have a lifelong learning culture.

Melissa: Speaking of lifelong
learning, I have just learned

today that you were a former street
jazz dancer and a backup dancer at

one point for Christina Aguilera.

Of course, I need to know
more information on this.

Were you in music videos or
was this for concerts and

Keith: shows?

I am in a music video.

I'm not going to say which one.

And it was also for some shows.

Right before the Bionic Tour.

But then she ended up getting
the voice and the Bionic Tour

was canceled, unfortunately.

I feel very blessed to have had
the opportunity to have had a

professional career and things
that I love, I love what I do now.

I'm extremely passionate about it.

This is my calling, but I also have
to have a completely separate career.

is as a dancer what I'll say now is
I'm paying for it for the rest of

my life between back issues and just
every day I can still feel the pain.

Melissa: Okay.

And what was the name of that
music video one more time?

Keith: The one I didn't tell you?

It's not myself tonight.

Melissa: Okay.

I will have to check that out.

But I want to say thank you
so much for joining us today.

I really enjoyed the conversation
and you had some really great points.

And of course, there's more
to read up on in your book,

The Trusted Learning Advisor.

Definitely go ahead and grab
your copy if interested.

And then Keith, one question for
you as the last step, if audience

members would like to connect with
you, what's the best way to do that?

Keith: One quick comment
before I answer that.

Even if you're not interested in
the book, you should still grab

a copy because it is for every
single L and D talent practitioner.

After you grab it and start reading
it, then you might become interested.

Sometimes you need that push.

This is your push.

Get the book.

To continue connecting with
me, LinkedIn is a great way.

My personal website is keithkeating.

com or if you want to learn more
about the book, very easy website,

the trusted learning advisor.

Melissa: Thank you again so much.

And we did it.

Okay.

Keith, we finished our first episode.

Thank you so much.

Keith: Absolutely.

Thanks, Melissa.

I appreciate it.

Take care.