The Practitioner-Scholar: The PennCLO Podcast

Melissa Monti: Hello, and welcome to
our episode of the Practitioner Scholar,

a Penn Chief Learning Officer podcast.

I'm Melissa Monte, and
I will be your host.

For those who don't know, the
Penn CLO program is an executive

doctoral degree path through
the University of Pennsylvania's

Graduate School of Education.

I'm also a current student
of this program as well.

We've been fortunate to have celebrated
the successes of many Penn CLO students

and alumni as they have grown into
thought leaders of organizational learning

throughout the public and private sectors.

However, in this edition, we
will specifically highlight

the achievements of Dr.

Candy Weans, now a senior fellow at the
University of Pennsylvania and author

of the new book, Burnout Immunity.

Getting to know her a bit more, Dr.

Weans holds multiple degrees and graduated
from the Penn CLO program in 2016.

Since then, her research has
focused on the topics of burnout,

emotional intelligence, and
organizational resilience.

She is an executive coach.

She also holds a faculty position
with the Police Executive Leadership

Institute and a 26 year track record
of organizational change consulting.

Most importantly, she says she is
passionate about creating learning

experiences that help people walk in
their purpose and lead with their values.

With that being said, we
are thrilled to welcome Dr.

Wiens to our program.

Thank you for joining us today.

May I call

you Candy?

Kandi Wiens: Yes.

Please call me Candy.

Melissa Monti: All
right, thank you so much.

Today we will explore several topics,
including key takeaways from your

research, how your findings impact
workplace learning, details on your

new book, and how the Penn CLO program
ultimately impacted your career.

But first, I would love to start with
an interesting anecdote that you shared

with our program several months back.

back.

I think it provides interesting
context to your research motivations.

Of course, could you tell us a little
bit about your health scare several

years back while you were juggling
work, school and also family life?

Kandi Wiens: Sure.

I'd be happy to share a bit about this.

And I did share my story with the
Pensiello students a couple of months ago.

It's one that triggers some
really difficult memories.

As you hear me tell this story, notice
that I still carry a lot of that stress

in my voice, which is part of what
I'm learning to do today as I apply

my emotional intelligence skills to
continue to manage the stress that I

experienced and what eventually led
to a life threatening wake up call.

At the time, about 10 years ago, I
led a very busy life like many of

our current students and our alumni.

I had three kids at home and I was
traveling a lot for work and for school.

I was in the middle of the Penn CLO
doctoral program and it started to hit me.

I started to notice things weren't quite
right when I was sitting in class one day.

It was a Friday afternoon and
I got an email from my youngest

son's kindergarten teacher and
the email contained a video clip.

Of my son making a recording and it was
just happened to be a day that they were

doing what was called muffins for moms.

It was the Friday before Mother's Day and
because I was not in his classroom, his

teacher took a video of him sending me a
very sweet message, basically telling me

that he loved me and he missed me and that
he was proud of me for going to school.

And when I was sitting in class
and I saw that video, it just

all of a sudden hit me that.

I was missing out on some pretty
key meaningful moments in my

personal life and my family life.

And I had this sensation for a while
that I was doing too much that I

was really, losing a bit of focus
on what my true core values were.

It had been there, but I was burying
it because I felt like I was really

just so focused on pursuing my
dream, which was important to me.

But I wasn't realizing at the
time that these sacrifices were

impacting more than just me.

It was impacting my family as well.

So that meaningful moment the passage
of that meaningful moment was the

beginning of a wake up call fast
forward a week after that, literally

one week later, I was in my doctor's
office just for a normal checkup.

The one where you go in and out of your
doctor's office, you think you're going

to be in there for 20 minutes, you
get your a, and you go back to work.

And the nurse took me
back to the exam room.

She checked my blood pressure.

She checked it a second time,
a third time, a fourth time

without saying anything.

She went out into the hallway and
while she was gone, I did what most

of us would do, and I picked up my
phone and I started checking my emails

and responding to a couple of texts.

At the time I didn't feel
necessarily overly stressed,

but I did feel a bit anxious.

And I do remember thinking I've got
to get back to work because I have a

lot of prep work to do for this big
leadership development program next week.

So anyway, , the nurse leaves the room
and about a minute later, the nurse

and my doctor walked in and my doctor
came in and she held my hand and she

sat down on the exam table next to me.

And she asked me, she looked in my eyes
and she asked me, Candy, are you okay?

And I said, yeah, I'm fine.

Felt a little anxious, a little
stressed, but nothing out of

the norm that felt normal to me.

She said, we're going to give
you a little bit of medicine.

I want you to lie down here for a bit
and I'm going to call your husband

and have him come and pick you up.

And then I started to get pretty
nervous about what was going on.

She told me that my blood pressure
reading was a 200 over 110.

I did not know at the
time what that meant.

I really had no idea how scary that was.

I just knew by the look on her
face that it wasn't normal.

Turns out that, that a blood pressure
reading that high can lead to

any number of really debilitating
and detrimental physical effects,

including loss of eyesight, stroke.

heart attack, even death.

They were about to send me to the
emergency room, but fortunately

the blood pressure medicine that
they gave me as well as a really

strong dose of Xanax wasn't enough
to bring my blood pressure down.

She then once my husband came,
she then gave my husband some

instructions because I was quite
tired and lethargic at that point.

But she instructed my husband I
wasn't supposed to do anything

for at least the next.

three to five days.

I wasn't supposed to go to
work the following Monday.

So my first thought when I heard her
say that I had to stay home from work

for a couple of days after the weekend,
my first thought was I can't stay home.

I have a big leadership development
program to run next week.

I can't take time out of my
schedule to just lay on the couch.

My second thought was finally,
I think she just ordered me to

just get some rest and sleep.

This is like the permission that I've
been waiting for to just slow down and

sleep and just rest, let my body rest.

And then my third thought when it really
hit me was she's absolutely right.

I'm not fine.

This is not normal to have this kind
of a wake up call, this kind of a

physical experience where your body
is screaming at you to slow down.

So that was the beginning of that wake
up call and what led to eventually

this big interest in me wanting to
understand what was leading to my

stress, what was causing me to have
that type of a physical reaction to it.

And ultimately it's what
led me to be so interested.

In stress and burnout research
and eventually the emotional

intelligence research as well.

Melissa Monti: Now, in retrospect,
thinking back on sort of your operating

rhythm, are there signs that you see now
that you were just going with no stop?

Kandi Wiens: Yes.

And that is a big part
of what I write about.

Actually, it's the second
chapter of the book.

It's all about developing awareness.

Awareness of many things, but one
of the key elements of awareness

is paying attention to the very
subtle signs that your psyche and

your body are telling you not just
to slow down, but to pay attention

to what the stress Is doing to you.

And I learned recently, I wish I would
have learned this many years ago.

But I actually just within the last
several weeks, I learned recently from

an author that I've been following
that every once in a while, it's

so important to just stop, pause
and ask yourself, what am I doing?

And what is it doing to me?

Two questions sounds so straightforward
and simple, but it really in practice,

if we ask ourselves those questions
throughout the day, like not just once

in a while, but literally throughout
the day, what am I doing right now?

And what is it doing to me?

So at the time, 10 years ago, when I had
that scare, I wasn't doing enough of that.

I honestly, I was living in this
state of almost unawareness.

I was just so focused on my goals
and so focused on avoiding going back

to the lifestyle that I had before.

I achieved some of the
success that I had realized.

So there were a lot of things that
were driving that unawareness for me.

And that's one of the things I'm just
extremely passionate about right now

is just helping people understand that
how important awareness is and there

are so many ways that we can do that,
that we can enhance our awareness.

Melissa Monti: Thank you for

sharing that story.

That's definitely scary.

I can only imagine what was going
through your mind at the time.

Thank you again.

Let's take a moment to define key
terms for the purpose of this podcast.

What are your definitions of
burnout and emotional intelligence

and how do the two intersect?

Kandi Wiens: Yes, because
they do intersect.

So burnout as.

The researchers who have been studying
this Concept or this construct

called burnout, since the early
1990s, we all agree that it's a

physical and mental and psychological
manifestation of chronic stress at work.

So it's primarily characterized by
the stress that we experience at work,

although the last several years, a number
of researchers have agreed that this.

Concept or construct of burnout goes
well beyond just what we experience

at work and it's a result of what
we experience in our entire life.

So burnout essentially is
a psychological syndrome.

It does have manifestations
as well, but it's primarily

characterized as a psychological
syndrome where we experienced.

Three common symptoms.

And it could, those symptoms
could vary person by person.

The first symptom or the first sign
that we're starting to feel burned

out is that feeling of just utter
and total emotional exhaustion.

If you've ever had that feeling where you
wake up in the morning and before you even

open your eyes, you think to yourself.

I just can't even imagine getting
out of bed today and going to work.

I'm just so depleted emotionally.

And primarily that feeling
comes from serving other people.

That's why we see in the health
professions, caring professions even

in law enforcement or with educators
as well, professions that require.

Us to give a lot of emotional energy to
other people, where at the end of the

day, we just feel so drained and depleted.

If we experience that for long periods
of time, that can really increase

that level of emotional exhaustion.

The second symptom is called.

Depersonalization or cynicism.

And that's the feeling that we
have about other people at work.

So it's that general feeling that
I have a kind of a more negative

or more bad attitude about
other people that I work with.

And that could be colleagues,
peers, it could be customers

or patients or students.

It could be anyone in our work
environment, but just having

a less optimistic or positive
view about other people.

And then the third symptom or
sign of burnout is what's called

lack of professional efficacy.

And that's just a fancy way of
saying that I feel less effective

at my job than I normally do.

And that, that occurs oftentimes
when people are new to a role,

they're new to a, an organization.

They're experiencing some new big change
at work that's requiring them to pull

on new skills or develop new skills and
that just makes them feel oftentimes

like I just not as effective or not in my
groove at work the way that I normally am.

The interesting thing about
professional efficacy is that.

It's the exact opposite, or it
can counter affect the feelings of

emotional exhaustion or cynicism.

So the more efficacious that we feel
at work, in other words, the more

effective and confident I feel in my
abilities, the less likely I am to

feel emotionally exhausted or to feel
cynical about other people at work.

So that's the common definition of burnout
that most burnout researchers and the

World Health Organization agree with.

And then emotional intelligence is
a construct that's been around for

really literally hundreds of years.

But it was around the late 1980s, 1990s
that Daniel Goleman popularized the

concept and brought it to the, to our
attention and in the popular media.

He later did a lot of research
with Richard Boyatzis out of case

Western, and then our own Dr.

Annie McKee, who was the director
of the Penn CLO program for a

number of years and is still an
adjunct faculty member at Penn GSC.

So I've fortunately been
able to study under Dr.

Annie McKee and the current most
common definition of emotional

intelligence is that it consists
of four different domains.

The first two domains have to do with
Self awareness and self management.

So my ability to be aware
of, understand, and manage my

emotions, thoughts, and behaviors.

That's a very simplistic
definition of those first two

domains of emotional intelligence.

The second two domains of EI
have to do with my ability to

perceive, understand, and manage.

What's going on in my social
environment, my ability to build

strong, healthy relationships with
other people, my ability to empathize

with other people my ability to
participate in and lead effectively

lead other people in a team situation.

So the two intersect.

Burnout and emotional intelligence
intersect in really interesting

ways, which is what my
research has been focused on.

And I'd be happy to tell you more about
that, but it, my, my studies have been

some of the first that have directly
looked at ways in which leaders and

even individual contributors, and you
don't have to be a leader to use your

EI, but people of all walks of life, any
profession, any industry in any country.

My research has been looking
at ways that we can use our EI

specifically to manage stress and
truly protect ourselves from burnout.

Melissa Monti: You mentioned a
few key sources for information.

Who else have you worked with to
determine what burnout really means?

This could be anyone from
medical doctors to psychologists,

possibly other academic scholars.

Tell me a little bit about how
you gathered your information.

Kandi Wiens: So Lots of great research
out there in both the fields of

burnout and emotional intelligence.

So I've been reading and resilience
and some of the other constructs

that have been formed these
other, big bodies of literature.

So I've been looking at.

Scholars in these fields for a number
of years, Daniel Goleman, Richard

Boyatzis, Annie McKee, are the primary
thought leaders and researchers in

the emotional intelligence space.

And then in the burnout space,
it's Christina Maslach, Michael

Leiter, a number of others.

As far as primary research, my
Research has been focused

on chief medical officers.

I do a lot of work with law enforcement.

I've now done focus studies with
a number of large law enforcement

agencies, Los Angeles Seattle, Portland,
Vancouver Oklahoma City and a number

of other smaller law enforcement
agencies where we're studying both

police chiefs as well as that one
or two levels below a police chief.

I've also studied leaders in many
different industries, and I've been known

to even interview bartenders and baristas.

I will literally talk to anyone and
everyone who is interested in opening up

to me about what their experiences are.

When it comes to stress at
work and how they deal with it.

And it turns out I, I believe from my
research anyway, that regardless of

the industry or the role, or even where
you work in the country or really any

country, it really doesn't matter.

These tools and strategies of emotional
intelligence can be applied in any type

of role leadership or non leadership role.

Melissa Monti: And what
are the sentiments?

I'm just curious from some of
your research participants.

Do they say thank you for
bringing awareness to this?

I thought I was alone or
something similar to that.

Kandi Wiens: Yes.

Yeah, that's been one of the most
rewarding parts of my research is that

if you think about it for those of us
who are qualitative researchers, we are

there to collect data, we are there to
hear people's stories and to walk away

with data that we can then turn into.

Codes, and those codes
get turned into themes.

So there's a whole process of
data collection as a researcher.

But one of the things that I didn't fully
appreciate until I got into the interview

process is that qualitative interviews
are essentially an intervention.

They're an intervention in
your study participants lives.

And just to give you one example, I'll
never forget one chief medical officer

that I interviewed Before our interview,
he took the Maslock burnout inventory.

It's basically a research
instrument that tells us whether

or not someone has burned out.

And I saw his results before I
conducted the interview with him.

And he rated his stress level as a
nine out of 10, meaning that he was

describing his stress as very severe
borderline, worst possible stress.

And he did characterize.

As burned out on the mouse lock,
burnout inventory actually had

a quite a high level of burnout.

And in my interview with him he was kind
enough to share a number of stories with

me that I reported on, but towards the end
of the interview, he started weeping and

and we were on zoom and I saw him weeping
a bit and I asked him if he was okay.

And I immediately took off my researcher
hat and I put on just my executive

coaching hat and my supportive friend hat.

And I asked him, doctor.

Smith disguises name, but
I asked him, Are you okay?

And he said, I am okay.

Actually this Conversation
is really opening my eyes.

He said, I'm starting to realize
more and more that I am suffering.

I'm suffering and my family is suffering.

And I've known for a while that I
need to do something differently.

So notice that his story was similar
to mine, that he noticed a little bit.

He had some level of awareness,
but he wasn't necessarily

doing what he needed to do.

He wasn't what I call aware and care.

So he might have had a bit of an
awareness that he was struggling and

suffering, but it wasn't until the
interview where he was opening up.

To do something different.

Melissa Monti: So that awareness
is kickstarting the journey,

which is super important.

Yes.

Good.

You've published several Harvard Business
Review articles on using emotional

intelligence to building resilience.

In fact, just wanted to let you know,
I was scrolling down LinkedIn yesterday

and I saw a new article from you.

I think it was just recently published.

So congratulations.

Kandi Wiens: Thank you.

Yeah.

It just came out yesterday.

Melissa Monti: In your opinion,
how is this done using emotional

intelligence to build resilience?

And is it sustainable over the long term?

Kandi Wiens: Yes.

Yes, we can build it and yes, we can
use our EI and yes, we can sustain

it, but it does take hard work.

So that's what we're going to
talk about is truly the foundation

of my book, Burnout Immunity.

So in Burnout Immunity, you'll see
that the chapters are organized by a

resilience framework that I created.

The acronym is ARMR, A R M O R.

So really briefly, the A is for awareness.

And so in that chapter about
awareness, you will learn all

kinds of tools and strategies.

There are a number of exercises that
describe how becoming aware of not

just what's making us more vulnerable
to burnout in our current work

environment, but also an awareness
of my temperament and my personality

and ways in which I might be.

Causing and amplifying stress for
myself based on my temperament, my

personality and my past experiences.

It also includes a whole section on
having an awareness of what triggers our

stress and why things are triggering us.

Melissa, for example, you and I could
be working in the same stressful work

environment, have the same boss, same
conditions, but I might experience that

stress much more intensely than you.

Just based on my past experiences
or again, because of my personality

and I might be triggered by things
that you are not triggered by.

So having an awareness of all of
these things and more, there's more

in that chapter are the first and
the most important step to then

moving through the armor framework.

The second chapter is our,
which is all about regulation.

That's the emotional intelligence
competency that we often

hear of as self management.

Self regulation impulse control.

So that chapter is all about how we
manage and regulate our emotions,

our thoughts, and our behaviors.

It also has a lot of information
in there about how to really learn

about your unique stress response.

Each of us has a very different
stress response, biologically

and psychologically.

And so the more we learn about our
stress response, the better we're able

to regulate it, the better we're able to
tune into what are the things that help

me regulate my stress response, whether
I'm experiencing acute or chronic stress.

The third chapter of the book, the
M is for meaningful connections.

And in that book I talk about how we
can use our emotional intelligence

to connect to relationships.

To our values and to meaningful work
and each one of those things requires

us to have an awareness of what's
important to us, as well as having

the ability to regulate our emotions,
thoughts and behaviors so that we

can focus on and dedicate time and
energy to meaningful connections.

Our values and our and meaningful work.

The O in the armor framework
is about our outlook.

Think of it as I think
of outlook as mindset.

So the ways that we look at life, the way
that we look at how we lead other people.

So in that chapter, I walk
readers through the four vital

mindsets of resilient role models.

Of people who have burnout immunity.

So I talk about servant
leadership, how that helps us.

I talk about how having a stress is
enhancing mindset, helps us navigate

stress and protect ourselves from burnout.

The third mindset that really
contributes to burnout immunity is

having a positive outlook, which
happens to be a very specific

emotional intelligence competency.

It really encompasses all of the ways
in which we view things as either

optimistic or pessimistic and how having
a positive outlook really changes our

subjective experience of stress itself.

And then the fourth vital mindset
that I talk about is the aware and

care mindset I mentioned before that
it's not just important to have an

awareness of what stress is doing to
us, but we have to take that next step

and actually care enough for and about
ourselves to do something differently.

So that aware and care mindset is
that fourth vital battle mindset.

And then the final are the final
chapter of the book is all about

recover, reconnect and reimagine.

It's what I call the three Rx prescription
for resilience and for burnout immunity.

So recover is all about how to
heal from burnout, or if you are

at high risk of burnout, how to
back off and build more recovery

into your schedule, into your life.

So that you can reduce
your risk of burning out.

The second R is about reconnecting.

So it brings us back to the meaningful
connections chapter, where we learn

how to reconnect to our values,
our purpose, and to relationships.

And then the last R in the 3RX
prescription is re imagining.

So once we've healed from burnout, once
we're reconnecting to the things and

the people in our lives that are most
important, and once we can change our

view of our stressful work experiences
and our environment, we can begin to re

imagine the type of relationship that
we want to have with work going forward.

I'll never forget a question that I was
asked in an interview is that actually Dr.

Annie McKee asked me this question when
she interviewed me for my job at Penn.

She asked me, how do you want
work to fit into your life?

And that question right
there is about re imagining.

So that final R in that final chapter
is about not just imagining your ideal

self, but really re imagining this
relationship that you want to have with

work and how you want work to fit into
your life and not the other way around.

Melissa Monti: Hearing this.

Some may say I simply don't
have time to be more mindful.

How can we debunk this myth of not having
time for better wellness practices?

Do you think?

Kandi Wiens: Number one, I advice to all
my friends who are listening and advice

to myself after remember that you can't
afford not to truly, I mean if you care

about your health and your well being and
if you were to sit down and be completely

honest with yourself about what you value,
and many of us say that we value our

health and our wellbeing and all of that,
but we can't afford to ignore the signs.

So a lot of the tips and strategies
that you will learn in burnout

immunity, don't take extra time.

Some of this stuff is
just a mindset shift.

It's training yourself
to think differently.

About your stressors, it's training
yourself how to recognize the signs.

So they're not necessarily the
type of things that will take you

more time or even more effort.

You're just going to be thinking
about things differently.

And yes, you will be
doing things differently.

You may be setting boundaries differently.

You may be distancing yourself
from toxic coworkers and putting

up more emotional boundaries.

But that doesn't necessarily
take you more time.

It's just a different way of doing things.

Melissa Monti: To many of us, myself
included, the process of researching and

writing a book seems pretty daunting.

You're on your way to your
very first book release.

Congratulations again.

Thank you.

How did you embark on those first few
steps, if you wouldn't mind sharing, from

thinking about a topic, which it sounds
like you had one in mind, to translating

your research into relatable literature?

Kandi Wiens: Yeah.

So while I was conducting all my research
for my dissertation, and then I continued

conducting a few studies after I
graduated, I always had this idea in the

back of my head that I wanted to write a
book and more than anything, it felt like

a fantasy and a dream, something that
I wanted to do, but I wasn't, I didn't

actually think that it would happen.

I really didn't.

And I came up with the armor framework
one day when I was out on a walk and

it just all of a sudden hit me and
I thought, wait a minute, if I can

put this into a framework that makes
sense when I teach it, when I teach

a workshop or deliver a keynote.

then maybe there is something there
that I could turn into a book.

So that's where it started to get
real, turned from fantasy and a dream

to actually do something with it.

So then I started to get really practical.

Okay.

What do I need?

If I have the idea, I have the research,
I can actually envision what will

be in this book, but I need help.

I can't do this alone.

I felt like I was a good writer, and I
knew academically that I could write I

could write scholarly pieces, I could
write Harvard Business Review pieces, but

writing a book is a very different animal.

It's scary, especially when
you have a full time job and

three teenage boys at home.

I started looking into writing
coaches and I worked with a couple

of different writing coaches
who were incredibly helpful.

But it wasn't until I
met Catherine Nepper.

Catherine was introduced to me by one
of my HBR editors and Catherine and I

just hit it off immediately and I knew.

I need to partner with this woman.

And so she and I wrote the book together.

She helped me conduct a lot
of the secondary research.

She took a lot of my stories that I
would record into a voice recorder,

or I would send her what she would
call a word salad, just messy drafts.

And then she would help me just put it
together in a way that just made it sing.

So for anyone who's considering writing
a book and, but you're not quite sure

about your writing skills, or you
just don't have the time to write.

I don't think there's nothing
wrong with hiring a writing coach.

She didn't write the book for me, but she
helped me learn how to write the book.

And then she introduced me to my agent
and then from there, it just things

turned into a snowball effect of
different introductions here and there.

Melissa Monti: Yeah, and many are likely
not aware that it truly takes a village

to publish a book as you mentioned,
so tell us a little bit more about the

team you've surrounded yourself with
in order to bring this work to life.

Kandi Wiens: Yeah, I love my team.

Absolutely love my team.

Catherine, my writing coach,
introduced me to Jill Marcel,

my agent who then introduced me,
will help me get my contract with

HarperCollins, who is my publisher.

And so there's an entire team at
HarperCollins, editors, marketing

team, sales team, that they're
helping me at this point with

the whole marketing strategy.

I've surrounded myself with a
team of social media experts.

I have a publicist actually two
publicists now that I'm working with,

and I'm also working with a marketing
firm that focuses on bulk orders.

So that group of people
will help me process books.

People, if people want to order 10
or more books, they help me with

that part of the marketing strategy.

So yes, I've surrounded myself with a
lot of people and yes, It's expensive.

But when you write a book that is being
published by a big publisher, oftentimes

it comes with a sizable advance.

So that advance has been able to
help me afford to surround myself

with just an incredible team.

Melissa Monti: And I'm not sure if you
mentioned, but it's a woman led team.

Kandi Wiens: Yes, about 99 percent of
the people that I'm working with on my

team, I forgot to mention my, I have a
team that's helping me design and develop

a new website, which will be launched
in a couple of weeks, but almost all

women, 98, 99 percent of them are women.

I'm super excited.

And they're all invested in
and excited about this book and

getting this message out to folks.

Melissa Monti: I love that.

That's amazing.

Now, beyond the marketing, in terms
of other engagements that you have

lined up, tell me a little bit about
some media interviews or possibly

some keynote speaking events that you
have in relation to the book release.

Kandi Wiens: Yeah, I think one
of the best investments I've made

with my advance payment was to
hire this publicist called 48 PR.

They have been securing media interviews.

Last week I did one with men's health
and another with fortune magazine.

I have just yesterday, they scheduled
me for four podcasts coming up.

There's a lot of.

Traction going on.

They're lining up outlets
for me to publish articles.

I just wrote one for leader
to leader, which is Francis

Heiselbein's organization.

They are pitching me to New York times.

They will eventually pitch me to all
kinds of media television they have a

podcast strategy, but in addition to that,
I continue to do a number of keynotes,

which I've been securing on my own.

I have a number of private clients
that I work with, and then I'll have

people reach out to me occasionally,
just have heard from me through Harvard

Business Review or have heard about me
on LinkedIn and invite me to do either

a keynote or a workshop with them.

Melissa Monti: Very good.

I wish you luck.

Kandi Wiens: Thank you.

Melissa Monti: When readers finish
your book and put it down, what

is the one thing you hope they are
taking away from it all and possibly

applying to their everyday lives?

Kandi Wiens: I am confident that readers
who actually read the book and internalize

what I'm sharing with them will walk away
with skills and strategies and tools.

I guarantee that it is written for people
to walk away with practical, realistic

and accessible tools and strategies.

What I think people will also walk
away with that they may be surprised

about is a feeling of empowerment and
a feeling of inspiration that they will

see not just from me sharing my story,
but from a number of other stories of

interview participants, people that
I've been researching for years, that

these stories are truly inspiring.

These are everyday people.

And executive leaders who experienced
just extreme levels of stress at

work, yet they are not burned out.

And so their stories are just
incredibly inspiring as you read the

details of what their day is like
and what the types of stress that

they are experiencing, yet they are
applying their emotional intelligence

to protect themselves from burnout.

And if they can do it.

I know that we can do it.

I've been using and applying
everything I've learned from

my research participants, and
I feel incredibly empowered.

I know that I can do it.

I rely on my organization.

I don't have to rely
on other people's work.

I rely on myself and my emotional
intelligence to improve my psychological

well being, and that's really empowering.

Melissa Monti: Being a former penn
student yourself through the CLO

doctoral program, how do you feel
that experience contributed to where

your career has taken you today?

Basically, how is the program shaped and
influenced your identity, do you think?

Not just shaped.

My identity transformed really I can't
say enough about the Penn CLO program.

Kandi Wiens: It was during the
program that I had that major life

threatening wake up call with stress.

And it was during the program that
I started learning about emotional

intelligence and it was during the program
that I started gaining my confidence

in my ability to become a researcher.

I met so many amazing people in
the program that have been such

an incredible support system.

Of course, during the program, but
also since the program, one of my very

best friends to this day is someone
that I met 10 years ago in the program.

He was one block ahead of me
and he's just been an incredible

support system ever since then.

And so it's not just the content.

It's not just the.

The work that we do to become researchers
how that transforms our identity.

But it's also just the experience
of being surrounded by like minded

people who are just so intellectually
curious about different topics.

That's so inspiring.

And it's almost impossible to, for
me anyway, it was, would have been

impossible to not transform my identity.

And I see that with so many of
our students and alums who go

through the program who have
similar experiences, just.

really having that transformational
identity transformation experience.

Melissa Monti: For prospects
out there considering a doctoral

program who may also wonder if they

can balance it all, I have
definitely been there myself.

What advice would you share?

Kandi Wiens: The advice I would share
is to trust your faculty members, trust

the Penn CLO program directors that
they will help you get through it.

They see every single one of our students.

I should say we see because I'm
a part of that faculty team.

We see our students, we see what
we have insight into their personal

lives and we know how difficult their
careers are and balancing their family

life with school and everything.

And we are there to support you.

And so to every person out there
who's thinking about applying to

the program, just know that you will
have an opportunity to be surrounded

by an incredible faculty team as
well as the peers in your cohort.

The other thing I would just
advise everybody to think about

is think long and hard about.

Managing your work schedule.

And so if there are things you could
do now to adjust your work schedule,

take time off, maybe go back to only
80 percent time, something like that.

I scaled my hours back for a period
of time when I was working on my

dissertation, but anything you
can do to just manage some of your

work boundaries so that you can
really focus on your schoolwork

during some of those crunch times.

Melissa Monti: In your opinion, what is
the best part of seeing results with your

consulting and your teaching endeavors?

How are you measuring success,
both personally and professionally?

Kandi Wiens: I measure success
in a couple of different ways.

Number one, the impact that I see
this work having on other people.

There have been countless times where
I have finished a keynote, I've come

off the stage, a few minutes later I
go to the bathroom, freshen up, and

someone will approach me in the bathroom.

Sometimes a couple of people
will approach me in the bathroom.

One woman just several months ago
was in tears and she told me that

was really inspiring her to make some
changes that she knew she needed to

have a hard conversation with her
boss about her workload and her hours.

To me, that's a clear indication,
a clear example of the impact that

this work is having on other people.

The other way that I measure success is
my ability to keep my stress in check.

It's very easy for me,
someone who's a serious.

Insecure overachiever.

Serious insecure overachiever.

That's hardwired in me.

So it's really easy for me to throw
myself into a million different things

at once over commit, and then regret
it a little bit later because I'm just

not setting the boundaries that I need
to manage my psychological health.

And so to me, a measure of my success
is my ability to protect myself from

burnout, to really live and role model.

The skills and behaviors and the mindset
that I hope other people will learn

Melissa Monti: on a
more lighthearted note.

And maybe I'm looking
for recommendations here.

What is one unique, possibly quirky
thing that you do or like to do to relax?

Kandi Wiens: Oh, I love this one.

One of my coworkers, a friend
of mine is having her first

baby in a couple of weeks.

And so for her baby present, I bought her.

Hopefully this won't air until after she
has her baby shower, but I bought her

this pink blanket and it is the softest
blanket I've ever seen in my entire life.

And so when I was taking it out of
the packaging and wrapping it for

the baby shower, I was touching it.

And I thought, Oh my God, this is, this
blanket is it could be life changing.

I need to order one of these for myself.

So I went online and sure enough,
they have an adult version of it.

And the blanket feels like.

rabbit fur, like bunny fur.

And so when I am just like really
overwhelmed, I find myself going through

emails and I feel like I have way too
many things coming at my psyche faster

than I can manage and just starting
to feel my anxiety level go up.

I'll just take a moment and just
go sit on the couch with my blanket

and just meditate for five minutes.

And five minutes out of my day is yes.

I can rationalize it as it's cutting into
things that I should be doing, but no,

that's probably one of the most important
things I can do for five minutes to

just sit with my blanket and meditate.

And that right there can bring my stress
response back to an equilibrium level

where then I can get back to work with
a little bit more of a clear head.

Melissa Monti: I have been there
as well, just so you know, I'm

a big fan of the cozy blankets.

Kandi Wiens: They work.

Melissa Monti: All right.

One final question for you.

Can we do it all and do
it well at the same time.

What are your thoughts

Kandi Wiens: I think that depends on
what your definition of having it all is.

Years ago, I remember one of the
best pieces of advice I ever got was

make sure you're very clear on what
your definition of having it all is.

Don't live by anyone else's
definition of what having it all is.

So that's job number one
is what does that mean?

And that takes us back to our values.

So for me, yes, I do have
it all because my values.

Include my psychological
wellbeing, my physical health,

my relationships with my family.

So when I stay focused on my
values and those values are

informing my definition of success.

Yes, I can have it all because I've
started with the right definition.

Melissa Monti: Dr.

Wiens, thank you again
so much for your time.

This has really been an inspiring
session for me and I'm sure a lot of

our audience members as well, too.

Your book that we mentioned, Burnout
Immunity, will be released on April 23rd.

Congratulations again.

And for those who would like to contact
you or follow some of your great work,

what is the best way for them to do this?

Kandi Wiens: Yeah, please free to
reach out to me on LinkedIn, or you

can email me directly at candy weans.

com.

And I'd love to hear from people.

Melissa Monti: All right.

Thank you so much again for your time.

Kandi Wiens: Thank you.